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So, what do we know about these characters and what do we trust?

We've been told that there's characters that have existed in some form, dead? until the end of time and that the goal of the adversaries is to destroy all reality to proactively end their eternal torment.

I'm trying to get a handle on what we actually know, what I might have misread or misinterpreted, what others have gleaned about them.

We have a multiverse, we have multiple wars - in the end of Tyler G they had a darkness coming, in the Alternate Places end we had war of the bugs, we've had others of our team out there, and Winston Mills in Discipline and Merry in YA... folks working on behalf of them. They had bugs in Persist, as well as using people on their behalf.

They have hidden bases around the place, typically underground. They also have specific worlds they have bases where they torture and keep captives for their war.

And I believe I read (possibly AP?) that they need to win once? But if that were the case then given any number of worlds and permutations then they'd already have had to have won once.

There does seem to be a case where characters we've seen had to be driven insane, from being good, to work to their purposes to unlock the world for their greater powers, gods, whatever, to enter our reality.

There has also been mention of as one version of a being dies they whittle away until one is left at the end - I have memory of reading that, but I can't remember the book or context and I'm thinking I now need to go back and read everything.

So... is it about immortal characters only - these characters that are important and have gathered together in each of these realities. It seems to be primarily around the Tor character or his other self in other worlds, but he doesn't exist in many of them (being that anything is possible). Do they have to win once or many times, and do we believe their end goal, and what they've said?

Just reading this topic, I think that most characters we've met as adversaries are merely the minions of the true Adversaries. In either Alternate Places or Other Places, maybe both, the characters like Big Shadow that we saw in the mall showdown and the ones plotting Zack's insanity through Xenses are the closest to the top of the hierarchy of the Adversaries. However, in Gwen's universe, we came closest to actually seeing the opening of the gate that would allow the true power of the old gods, the actual king bad guy or guys to enter a universe to start the destruction. So in my opinion, the bad guys we've met so far are mostly lower level drones being controlled by a behind the scenes evil force. But it was pretty well explained in both Gwen's cave scene and Zack's mall scene.

That Ronald guy seems to be pretty smart. (Well you all do, but... Hint.)



At least that's my take. if that matters at all. I'm not always certain that I'm not actually just describing things going on in different realities... I mean if everything exists...

It seems evident that the Advasaries are those immortals that are terrified of the void. They have progressed through time until only the void is left and are driven mad. It would follow that any of the Tor personas that never learned the void would be the ones that are on the side of the Adversaries. Also the wave of darkness seems to be death energy like Tyler uses. The adversaries use tech to cross and utlize the void. So it seems that a tech world of the undead is the likely source of the Adversaries. Problely a version of Jake that crossed over. I do not know how this might be used but, it seems consitant with the story so far.

Well, good and bad are subjective here.

There is a plan however... Which should be totally uncovered and finished this next year 2017.

Perhaps the adversaries winning is not as easy as might appear.

Think of it as a quantum event. The event being an interaction between realities that don't share accessible dimensions. That means the only way they can interact is as a whole. Each local win for the adversaries acts on the multiverse as a whole. Bit like a field effect.

The stronger the field the better chance that the event will happen. Nether side would be in a rush to admit that a local win upped the odds by say 0.0000000001%. It lacks inspiration.

If you ended an Earth before human beings arose as a dominant force, then Trillions of possible permutations would be ended suddenly, pruning a large group of worlds with one action. This, in turn, would affect millions (or more) of adjacent realities, which would be subtly shifted around at the edges, even if not destroyed.

So one "win" by the Adversaries would have a vast impact on more worlds than you and I could imagine.

Thankfully, most of them are just trying to make sure that they, and their people, don't have to float alone forever in an endless void, going insane. they aren't really focused on taking the whole thing down, just their own lines.

Of course, for every world where there is a Tor who wants to save people from endless suffering, there is a thoughtless Tor, who is more concerned with his day to day life, rather than the long-term consequences of what might happen.



If one Earth is ended early enough, it would be most possible to get them all... Which is far from taking out reality as a whole, of course. That would just remove the Earth Humans from the equation, if it worked.

Huh, so if someone took out Tor's primary world, the world all Tors collapse into I mean, then all the Tors would disappear, including the Zacks and Gwens, from all worlds?

My head hurts.