EDIT 1: apologies for the wall of text
EDIT 2: Well, just finished Lord of the Sky. I liked how messed up Timon's psychology has become; feels very real. I need to retract some of the statements below about Tor doing nothing. He's at least pretending there's some semblance of a plan...although for a smart guy, he seems awfully lacking in common sense, and consideration of 2nd and 3rd order effects of enacting plans (especially when contrasting to the mental dialogue with Timon).
Good Day to All,
First off, let me state that I enjoy reading the YA and that they are well written. The exposure of the mental working of people who may hold to very different psychological and sociological norms is refreshing. Ive already pestered Mr. Power too much via PM (thanks for the replies
) so I thought I might ask the general fan base a couple things.
Where my story-line perspective is at: ~80% Lord of the Sky (arc 1, YA 10, Timon2).
Note: I find 'the rules' to be an internally consistent and objectively logical method to combat real-world conflict stemming from negative emotions generated via negative social interactions (not that it has seemed to really work all that well in the story).
During the first several books (YA 1-5), i found the story to be very 'light' and entertaining, but linearly continuous with what Tor knows at the time (almost a mental handicap, he cant parse certain information normally). During these books and moving into Slave Line, the story get progressively darker as he learns more about the country he lives in. However, he still believes that most of the people around him are 'good and right', which is still mostly consistent, even though we begin to get a small view of the abusive nature of the nobility.
As the story evolves in Timon1 and Tiera 1, we see alternate psychological viewpoints, with the pseudo-hyper rationality of Timon and the hyper aggressiveness of Tiera. These novels really being to showcase some of the corruption of the nobility and abuse of the commoners (hereafter referred to as 'shorties') endemic in Noram. It is at this point where I start to get slightly mentally aggrieved with the small disconnects between behaviors and actions, that demonstrate intent and attitude, between the previous novels and these. This seems mainly to occur with the supporting characters (ex: characters say stuff or Timon find out stuff in later books that doesnt exactly match demonstrated attitudes in earlier books), but is solved by revealing that Tor's world view was minuscule, and that he never really knew the people around him.
This all gets exponentially worse in Ancient Kings. It is here that the true nature of the Noram political system is revealed as the morally bankrupt and abusive system that it is. We learn that with VERY FEW exceptions (like maybe 2 or 3 out of all the nobles; maybe the Queen, Regina (RIP)...none of the others have been specifically cleared by Tor in the book, not even the other royal kids), even if it isnt their fault (genetic and field pattern manipulation), the entire nobility basically despises shorties (or at least doesnt give a sh*% about them). The exception to this, which isnt really an exception if you think about it, is they are protective of their shorties, because they basically OWN them. The nobles dont give a damn about them as individuals except as it affects their health, comfort,and social standing (ie. they have similar value as slaves: only valued for what they can produce; not as PEOPLE).
Ancient Kings (and moving into Lord of the SKy) is where my frustration (the pleasant frustration of reading a good story and thinking about it) comes to a head. Did it feel that way to anyone else while reading this point of the series? It has been stated that Tor broke his biological slavery and then removed the part of his own mental field pattern causing him to acquiesce to any tall person automatically. He learns the full scope of the abusiveness and corruption of the Noram system. He learns that the people around him (the King, Trice, some of the other nobles near him) dont respect him AT ALL. They might think hes attractive or in fear of his power, but they completely lack any respect for shorties, including him. And...he does nothing and doesnt tell any of his other relatives, except Green (who already knows and doesnt seem to care or is too mentally enslaved to do anything) and Tiera (who also doesnt seem to care except as it affects her direct interactions with nobility; ie. Havar), who might have found that information handy when dealing with the giants.
My frustration is centered around several logical inconsistencies with character attitudes and actions. Maybe someone could help me (avoiding spoiler details please, although i dont mind yes or no answers to gneral topic quesions) by pointing out some of the key details i may have misinterpreted:
-the Noram system is incredibly abusive to shorties; the nobles treat them almost as badly as the men in Afrak (see discussion with Sara on the boat coming back from Afrak; YA 4 or 5 i think); they see them as possessions, livestock, or just a way to keep score in their intrigues.
-the nobility are very emotionally sensitive; hurt feeling feeling leading to physical beatings (see Tiera1 there is no amount of emotional abuse that you can cause someone to justify beating them near to death, unless you lack all empathy for shorties; borderline emotional blackmail for sexual favors and not really in 'the rules') and armed conflict (ie. you didnt marry me/have sex with me so im going to use my commoners to kill your commoners...). even during the rebellion the attitude was along the lines of: someone like Timon could go assassinate the treasonous rebels leaders but no one orders something like that because they are still relatives, even though it will cause a much greater loss of life with the commoners (ie. you committed treason, tried to kill me with your commoners, caused death and destruction of my commoners, but you're distantly related to me and i like your cousin/sister/other relative, so im not going to have you killed).
-the Royal family, Trice, Sara, and everyone else around Tor, Timon, and Tiera KNOW all this, and might even be part of some of it (never explicitly stated though), given their lack of empathy surrounding certain interactions with shorties that occur (Sara just knowledge,not involved really because she doesnt have the prejudice genes, and is generally powerless to change the system). Tors other noble friends KNOW this or are part of it (maybe not being abusive themselves, but their general apathy towards what goes on). People like Hardgrove, Kolb, Tor's parents KNOW or should know this.
-None of the above mentioned groups seem to care (via their actions) other than as a general observation (its somewhat understandable with the nobles because they CANT, which is the whole problem). The only person actually working on a solution is Doris and we've been shown just how (in)effectively thats working out.
-Tor (along with Timon and Tiera) are demonstrably good people even factoring in some of the reactions (or over reactions) that have occurred around specific events. Pretty much everything that they've done was in relation to a specific provocation by a noble or in response to blatant abuse of others by a noble, which was ignored by the other nobility. I can only see their actions as good, or at least justified, in combating the abusiveness of the nobles.
-In Ancient Kings, Tor finds out the truth about the attitudes of nobles towards shorties. He knows the King doesnt respect him (just forced to via mental controls em placed by Green), Trice doesnt respect him (dont get me started on Trice: she moved from a slightly sleazy and generally bitchy character in the first few novels to being revealed as someone with power whose sole motivation is keeping the current power structure in place, protecting herself and her families place in it), most of the nobles around him dont respect him and many actively despise him (again, understandable based on the mental conditioning in place).
-Tor's attitude/actions towards the nobles around him DONEST CHANGE AT ALL, even given the new information and newly acquired mental faculties. He doesnt even really confront anyone about it except the King who just accepts his statement and seems to shrug it off.
-Given the above statements that Tor is a good person, it is hard to reconcile his knowledge of peoples attitudes towards him and the shorties with how he treats them. He doesnt get angry when they obviously care more about their fellow nobles who may have been killed than any deaths among the shorties (except as something like: oh, no, that village was wiped out, ive lost that workers that generated income for me). He doesnt tell anyone in his family (why the hell wouldnt he tell Timon? In Lord of the Sky its obvious that Timon knows alot, but not specifically about the general lack of caring about the shorties; although he seems to sort of figure out something adjacent to that during the whole time he has to deal with Trice; talk about a character (trice) who literally makes the wrong decision in EVERY strategic situation, and most tactical social situations). he doesnt seem to really care that much about the systemic abuse other than 'being sad'. he starts himself growing, almost like he wants to join the system instead of fight it, which would change his character from 'good' to morally hypocritical.
-im not sure how Timon withholding the healing for the Gray Plague is a better idea than just going and assassinating the rebel nobles (just do what Tiera did to the Morris estate except that the nobles would be present). it would be a far lower loss of life and he is supposed to be the logical one.
There are a few other things but they are mostly in the vein of the above statements. Basically the thoughts and actions of Tor and Timon in Ancient Kings and Lord of the Sky, doesnt seem to reflect the new information gained in YA 7-9 (Timon1 through AK). How can you be friends with people you KNOW dont respect you (Trice is the biggest example of this: she consistently abuses Tor's goodwill, lacking in all respect towards him, but somehow he 'loves' her anyways?)? The only people who i can understand him still accepting are his wife and Sara, and MAYBE Rolph (although it was never stated one way or the other whether he had the shorty discrimination gene, he is still guilty by association of not seeming to care about the abuse of the nobles in the system he is going to govern one day). How can you be a 'good' person and simply not care about the systemic abuse taking place around you. At least help Doris or something.
Anyways, I would appreciate any thoughts you guys may have. Did I misinterpret a specific scene? Am I over analyzing some of the context (ie. things are quite as bad as I laid them out)? of course the answer might just something simple, like Mr. Power recognizes these inconsistencies and they are a purposeful plot device to develop the story, and they get addressed in later books. And remember, I really like this series as well, this isnt truly criticism, just the enjoyment and discussion of thought provoking literature.
Regards, DarkSky
EDIT 2: Well, just finished Lord of the Sky. I liked how messed up Timon's psychology has become; feels very real. I need to retract some of the statements below about Tor doing nothing. He's at least pretending there's some semblance of a plan...although for a smart guy, he seems awfully lacking in common sense, and consideration of 2nd and 3rd order effects of enacting plans (especially when contrasting to the mental dialogue with Timon).
Good Day to All,
First off, let me state that I enjoy reading the YA and that they are well written. The exposure of the mental working of people who may hold to very different psychological and sociological norms is refreshing. Ive already pestered Mr. Power too much via PM (thanks for the replies
) so I thought I might ask the general fan base a couple things.Where my story-line perspective is at: ~80% Lord of the Sky (arc 1, YA 10, Timon2).
Note: I find 'the rules' to be an internally consistent and objectively logical method to combat real-world conflict stemming from negative emotions generated via negative social interactions (not that it has seemed to really work all that well in the story).
During the first several books (YA 1-5), i found the story to be very 'light' and entertaining, but linearly continuous with what Tor knows at the time (almost a mental handicap, he cant parse certain information normally). During these books and moving into Slave Line, the story get progressively darker as he learns more about the country he lives in. However, he still believes that most of the people around him are 'good and right', which is still mostly consistent, even though we begin to get a small view of the abusive nature of the nobility.
As the story evolves in Timon1 and Tiera 1, we see alternate psychological viewpoints, with the pseudo-hyper rationality of Timon and the hyper aggressiveness of Tiera. These novels really being to showcase some of the corruption of the nobility and abuse of the commoners (hereafter referred to as 'shorties') endemic in Noram. It is at this point where I start to get slightly mentally aggrieved with the small disconnects between behaviors and actions, that demonstrate intent and attitude, between the previous novels and these. This seems mainly to occur with the supporting characters (ex: characters say stuff or Timon find out stuff in later books that doesnt exactly match demonstrated attitudes in earlier books), but is solved by revealing that Tor's world view was minuscule, and that he never really knew the people around him.
This all gets exponentially worse in Ancient Kings. It is here that the true nature of the Noram political system is revealed as the morally bankrupt and abusive system that it is. We learn that with VERY FEW exceptions (like maybe 2 or 3 out of all the nobles; maybe the Queen, Regina (RIP)...none of the others have been specifically cleared by Tor in the book, not even the other royal kids), even if it isnt their fault (genetic and field pattern manipulation), the entire nobility basically despises shorties (or at least doesnt give a sh*% about them). The exception to this, which isnt really an exception if you think about it, is they are protective of their shorties, because they basically OWN them. The nobles dont give a damn about them as individuals except as it affects their health, comfort,and social standing (ie. they have similar value as slaves: only valued for what they can produce; not as PEOPLE).
Ancient Kings (and moving into Lord of the SKy) is where my frustration (the pleasant frustration of reading a good story and thinking about it) comes to a head. Did it feel that way to anyone else while reading this point of the series? It has been stated that Tor broke his biological slavery and then removed the part of his own mental field pattern causing him to acquiesce to any tall person automatically. He learns the full scope of the abusiveness and corruption of the Noram system. He learns that the people around him (the King, Trice, some of the other nobles near him) dont respect him AT ALL. They might think hes attractive or in fear of his power, but they completely lack any respect for shorties, including him. And...he does nothing and doesnt tell any of his other relatives, except Green (who already knows and doesnt seem to care or is too mentally enslaved to do anything) and Tiera (who also doesnt seem to care except as it affects her direct interactions with nobility; ie. Havar), who might have found that information handy when dealing with the giants.
My frustration is centered around several logical inconsistencies with character attitudes and actions. Maybe someone could help me (avoiding spoiler details please, although i dont mind yes or no answers to gneral topic quesions) by pointing out some of the key details i may have misinterpreted:
-the Noram system is incredibly abusive to shorties; the nobles treat them almost as badly as the men in Afrak (see discussion with Sara on the boat coming back from Afrak; YA 4 or 5 i think); they see them as possessions, livestock, or just a way to keep score in their intrigues.
-the nobility are very emotionally sensitive; hurt feeling feeling leading to physical beatings (see Tiera1 there is no amount of emotional abuse that you can cause someone to justify beating them near to death, unless you lack all empathy for shorties; borderline emotional blackmail for sexual favors and not really in 'the rules') and armed conflict (ie. you didnt marry me/have sex with me so im going to use my commoners to kill your commoners...). even during the rebellion the attitude was along the lines of: someone like Timon could go assassinate the treasonous rebels leaders but no one orders something like that because they are still relatives, even though it will cause a much greater loss of life with the commoners (ie. you committed treason, tried to kill me with your commoners, caused death and destruction of my commoners, but you're distantly related to me and i like your cousin/sister/other relative, so im not going to have you killed).
-the Royal family, Trice, Sara, and everyone else around Tor, Timon, and Tiera KNOW all this, and might even be part of some of it (never explicitly stated though), given their lack of empathy surrounding certain interactions with shorties that occur (Sara just knowledge,not involved really because she doesnt have the prejudice genes, and is generally powerless to change the system). Tors other noble friends KNOW this or are part of it (maybe not being abusive themselves, but their general apathy towards what goes on). People like Hardgrove, Kolb, Tor's parents KNOW or should know this.
-None of the above mentioned groups seem to care (via their actions) other than as a general observation (its somewhat understandable with the nobles because they CANT, which is the whole problem). The only person actually working on a solution is Doris and we've been shown just how (in)effectively thats working out.
-Tor (along with Timon and Tiera) are demonstrably good people even factoring in some of the reactions (or over reactions) that have occurred around specific events. Pretty much everything that they've done was in relation to a specific provocation by a noble or in response to blatant abuse of others by a noble, which was ignored by the other nobility. I can only see their actions as good, or at least justified, in combating the abusiveness of the nobles.
-In Ancient Kings, Tor finds out the truth about the attitudes of nobles towards shorties. He knows the King doesnt respect him (just forced to via mental controls em placed by Green), Trice doesnt respect him (dont get me started on Trice: she moved from a slightly sleazy and generally bitchy character in the first few novels to being revealed as someone with power whose sole motivation is keeping the current power structure in place, protecting herself and her families place in it), most of the nobles around him dont respect him and many actively despise him (again, understandable based on the mental conditioning in place).
-Tor's attitude/actions towards the nobles around him DONEST CHANGE AT ALL, even given the new information and newly acquired mental faculties. He doesnt even really confront anyone about it except the King who just accepts his statement and seems to shrug it off.
-Given the above statements that Tor is a good person, it is hard to reconcile his knowledge of peoples attitudes towards him and the shorties with how he treats them. He doesnt get angry when they obviously care more about their fellow nobles who may have been killed than any deaths among the shorties (except as something like: oh, no, that village was wiped out, ive lost that workers that generated income for me). He doesnt tell anyone in his family (why the hell wouldnt he tell Timon? In Lord of the Sky its obvious that Timon knows alot, but not specifically about the general lack of caring about the shorties; although he seems to sort of figure out something adjacent to that during the whole time he has to deal with Trice; talk about a character (trice) who literally makes the wrong decision in EVERY strategic situation, and most tactical social situations). he doesnt seem to really care that much about the systemic abuse other than 'being sad'. he starts himself growing, almost like he wants to join the system instead of fight it, which would change his character from 'good' to morally hypocritical.
-im not sure how Timon withholding the healing for the Gray Plague is a better idea than just going and assassinating the rebel nobles (just do what Tiera did to the Morris estate except that the nobles would be present). it would be a far lower loss of life and he is supposed to be the logical one.
There are a few other things but they are mostly in the vein of the above statements. Basically the thoughts and actions of Tor and Timon in Ancient Kings and Lord of the Sky, doesnt seem to reflect the new information gained in YA 7-9 (Timon1 through AK). How can you be friends with people you KNOW dont respect you (Trice is the biggest example of this: she consistently abuses Tor's goodwill, lacking in all respect towards him, but somehow he 'loves' her anyways?)? The only people who i can understand him still accepting are his wife and Sara, and MAYBE Rolph (although it was never stated one way or the other whether he had the shorty discrimination gene, he is still guilty by association of not seeming to care about the abuse of the nobles in the system he is going to govern one day). How can you be a 'good' person and simply not care about the systemic abuse taking place around you. At least help Doris or something.
Anyways, I would appreciate any thoughts you guys may have. Did I misinterpret a specific scene? Am I over analyzing some of the context (ie. things are quite as bad as I laid them out)? of course the answer might just something simple, like Mr. Power recognizes these inconsistencies and they are a purposeful plot device to develop the story, and they get addressed in later books. And remember, I really like this series as well, this isnt truly criticism, just the enjoyment and discussion of thought provoking literature.
Regards, DarkSky