Tony Winters as Mary Sue...

[David]

Partially.

Some people really can't stand to not see a protagonist fall and be drowned in angst. It really comes to personal opinion and not any author being "wrong" about how they write a story. I liked superman for instance, you know, before they turned him into an angst ridden killer in the last movie anyway.

I'm kind of on the other side of the spectrum. Angst annoys me if it's overdone. Which is another reason I like the Dale trademark of using question marks. It's like three whole pages of angst boiled down to a sentence, which for me is awesome.

I kind of got off subject there, but I take your point.

As the other poster pointed out, Dahner's characters are kind of Mary Sue. What makes them acceptable is they do have problems.

Vaz can't deal with people on an emotional level, and doesn't play well with others.

Ell is fast, and does good at short types of sports, but she can't run a mile to save her life. (No stamina) She also fell apart in one book where she did fail, through no fault of her own.

Neither of those things are major compared to their strengths, but it's enough sour to make us crave more of the sweet. I think I'll go to bed now, since I'm mostly just rambling.

[brainsniffer]

There is a point that Tony could be seen as a Mary Sue - but that's only in regards to fighting, and he's seen as a prodigy there, at least in picking up moves... but... it's pointed out he's a prodigy, and even against the women there's the fact that he could pretty easily lose. His power there is in his stamina, and the fact he battles through pain, and puts in the effort.

There are some moments that clearly make sense as to why he isn't when it's mentioned that power-wise anyone in the place has him beat. Most of the people he goes up against have age and pounds on him, and could put him down easily. He makes sure that characters are exhausted before facing him, so that he is comparable in power to provide a good match for them.

It does seem a bit strange that he provided such a good match for his second MMA performance - even "losing" he was going up against a pretty high ranked fighter and stayed in there.

I think it was a bit tough him going against Steve(?) full strength boxing when he was impersonating the autistic guy and stayed in there...

And the third part is the way he adapted to fighting with the BJJ guys and got past them pretty quickly - but he'd been working his strength up, and fighting for a while, and it was pretty clearly put forward that he was brilliant at remembering moves, escapes and was just that good. That said, he didn't completely dominate there, and Raul was still much better than him.

So, no, fighting-wise he wasn't...

And otherwise? He made plenty of mistakes... from burning dinner, to just not trusting he'd be accepted enough, to driving the others mad with his dedication and effort, to having to try to avoid relationship and hookup complications instead of being the don juan, etc.

I don't see that as being a Mary Sue.

[PS Power]

The idea that many of the core characters are angsty isn’t exactly hidden or incorrect. I’m not even going to defend that. They are the way I created them to be. There is a reason behind it, so I feel pretty good on that score.

Still, no one wants to be the “One Note” author. (Or creator of anything, at a guess…) So here are a few examples of not very angsty P.S. Power (main) characters.


1. Denis Thompson. (Gabriel)
2. Marcia Turner. (Cast Iron)
3. Penny Cooper. (Cellophane)
4. Cin Mableton. (Two books)
5. Timon Baker (Three books)
6. Tiera Baker (Three books)
7. Eve Benson (Three books)
8. Richard Swerlin (Christmas of the Vampire)
9. Keely Thomson (Five books)
10. Lily Leeds (The Best Revenge as Becky Lawson… Might not count for P. S. Power works, but she certainly isn’t filled with angst.)
11. Becky Young- Scott Chambers (Ghost Girl. Yes, her living first mode WAS angst, but that isn’t her bit in the book. They shared that work however… so it can’t really count twice.)
12. Pran. (She’s fighting for survival, but isn’t angst ridden. Driven, I’d say. Three books)
13. Tyler Gartner. (Three books. This one is a bit more up for debate in my mind. He’s mainly in an existential crises, but he doesn’t really worry over it that much…)
14. Mason Sims (Cheat)
15. Ben Epson (Discipline Series. Three books.)

All right, that isn’t every book, ever, but it’s 30 titles, where the main characters weren’t just rehashes of Tor. (Yes, I’ve heard that one, but… Seriously? Just because Tim and Tiera, and Tor use the same linguistic diphthongs that doesn’t mean they “speak with the same voice” Grrr. It doesn’t even mean that showing them in that fashion means poor crafting skills on my part. It COULD mean that, but it isn’t definitive.) 

Sure, some will argue a few of these. I’ve heard people try to claim Timon Baker as angsty. They are obviously wrong. Some will try to claim that for Ben, but it mainly isn’t true. (There are some moments, but if you count them up, it’s about five pages out of three books. Not on almost every page…)

Lily Leeds isn’t in the main line, that’s true, but counts as far as writing of characters goes.

So, 30 books. Most of them complete novels. More than the average career of most authors… Does that show that I can write something different when I want?  (Yes, I think that should count. Then I would, right?)

[PS Power]

[David]

You may have misunderstood my note.

Your angsty characters aren't angsty at all in comparison to some of the crap I've read that's out there. Some authors have then in tears every other page crying woe is me.

You don't push it too far. You get the point across and then move on. That isn't taking angst too far, that's doing it right...

Of course, that's just my opinion. But if you felt defensive, that wasn't my point, I like your style of angsty.

[PS Power]

Nah, I got that part. It's what they are meant to be. I didn't take that as a negative even. I was just bragging about how I also write different stuff.

Somewhat different. It doesn't hurt to think about things like that now and then either. There is a point in that kind of thing though. Showing people coming, eventually, out of it.

I was just discussing things, so, no worries, that didn't send me into a depressive spiral or anything. Not at all.

I have some other ideas... Things that I started to write, but stopped, since the truth is they are way to dark for the average person. They aren't angst filled, but... Not nearly as tame and friendly as what I let people see. (Most of what I would write otherwise really is...)

[addmoreice]

[brainsniffer]

[PS Power]

Lots of ways to make copies of people. Or get them... Without the work.

None of them apply to our world, yet... But I do see it coming eventually. A "virtual copy" is probably the first/best way of doing that from where we are now.

#tangent

(On my part at least.)

[brainsniffer]

Well, I guess short of Plastic Surgery and constant training the closest we get is parental abuse to turn kids into carbon copies.

"OMG I've turned into my mother!" ~ paraphrasing Eve on the topic of making perfect ice-cream treats.